Event Size Clarity

[femkes_follies]

Let me restate, as I was awful confused with the last post. So, given some of that backgrounds, what I'm sort of saying is this:

It seems that a lot of groups have just flat out lost access to larger sites (especially if they need to be indoors) due to increasing costs. Yes, we could raise site fees, but sometimes that won't do it. I DID surf some of the available sites in the Detroit area, and getting enough space for Crown as it currently runs might set you back anywhere from $3500-$7000. There just isn't anyway to confidently expect to not lose your shirt on that. And that's for sites that may not have much to recommend them, OTHER than size. The nice sites are a lot more!

So then, what do you do? Do you look for a site that will hold your event? Or do you cap an event at a certain number of attendees? Or do you deliberately alter the event to lower it's appeal?

I think that most of us would agree that we'd prefer smaller, well run and themed events with only one or two things going on to yet another of the same ol', same ol'. Though it is hard to convince groups launching a new event that they don't need something for EVERYone.

And, in the case of Crowns and Coronations -

Do you choose a less-than-ideal permanent site in one corner of the Kingdom and just figure those too far from it will have to suck it up?

Do you opt to limit the event to 400 attendees, and thereby make it easier for groups to bid for the events, as the site needs just dropped by half?

If you pick the first option, do you allow the formation of Principalities in the outlying regions, so that they can still have the benefits of Royal Events, even if they don't have the opportunity to host Crown and Coronation?

Comments

[estela-dufrayse.livejournal.com]

Do you choose a less-than-ideal permanent site in one corner of the Kingdom and just figure those too far from it will have to suck it up?

No, you move the event around the kingdom so that everyone gets a chance to attend. Period. To have it in one space every time will cause undo hardship on one group and is so completely unfair to everyone involved that it shouldn't even be discussed. Have the rotation spelled out in clear and concise wording so everyone knows where it will be held and when. Give all the groups a chance to hold the event and give them enough time to properly prepare for it.

Do you opt to limit the event to 400 attendees, and thereby make it easier for groups to bid for the events, as the site needs just dropped by half?

Allow each event to set it's own attendance levels as they feel comfortable. Remind people that it's only polite to reserve for events and make sure that the event hosts have the option of capping the attendance.

If you pick the first option, do you allow the formation of Principalities in the outlying regions, so that they can still have the benefits of Royal Events, even if they don't have the opportunity to host Crown and Coronation?

Allow for Principalities to form regardless of events. If the group is really ready, let it go and try. This business of dynasty building is bullshit. Let the group try. If they fail, which I find hard to believe in this case and many wrt CPs, then welcome them back into the fold no harm done. A movement like this will only be good for all groups involved. there should be more opportunities for pomp and more opportunities for people to have the roles that allow for pomp. see dynasty building refference above, this goes to men who hold on to the top roles year after year as well. There comes a time when the uber-Duke thing has to be given to someone new!

[femkederoas.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I think so, too. But I think I may be in the minority.

However, a cunning plan, so cunning you could put it on a stick and call it a weasel! is in development.

More later. ;-)

[landverhuizer.livejournal.com]

"So then, what do you do? Do you look for a site that will hold your event? Or do you cap an event at a certain number of attendees? Or do you deliberately alter the event to lower it's appeal"

I'm with Estela on this, it should be an option to people to put a cap on an event. There is also nothing wrong with altering an event, though I like not to think of it as deliberately altering it to lower it's appeal but rather focusing on the main appeal rather than letting it slip into generic event #427... However, doing so to an already established event will be aas much of a gamble in attendance vs hall cost as running a new event and an attendance cap might be necessary or the ability to take a loss.

"I think that most of us would agree that we'd prefer smaller, well run and themed events with only one or two things going on to yet another of the same ol', same ol'. Though it is hard to convince groups launching a new event that they don't need something for EVERYone."

I found it hard to convince autocrats that success was not necessarily having an event that did everything but I found a lot of that stems down to "this is what people know" and they tend to simply repeat it, I have also noticed that as people get to experience more focused events that they are usually thoroughly enjoyed by attendees. The problem seems to arise when the event organizer wishes **everyone** must attend their event and feel put out because such n' such did not attend due to lack of x activity.

Yeah... so... basically what you said (I just wanted to elaborate from what I've been seeing)

"And, in the case of Crowns and Coronations -

Do you choose a less-than-ideal permanent site in one corner of the Kingdom and just figure those too far from it will have to suck it up?"

I whole heartedly feel that as we choose crappier and crappier event sites, we are making our game crappier by favouring quantity and convenience over quality and care.

As for one corner of the kingdom... heck no! and to further, Kingdom events should be spread out as well, Royalty needs to hit all the little regional areas in order for the game to work. If that is too far to go, then it is seriously time to make smaller kingdoms... so there you have the principality thing.


"Do you opt to limit the event to 400 attendees, and thereby make it easier for groups to bid for the events, as the site needs just dropped by half?"

If the organizers can't find a site for 700-900+, then they cap the site. They really should not be required to find a site that greatly exceeds the number of competitors and other necessary people, if they can then fine but it should not be expected in order to win a bid.

"If you pick the first option, do you allow the formation of Principalities in the outlying regions, so that they can still have the benefits of Royal Events, even if they don't have the opportunity to host Crown and Coronation?"

I lost track... there was an option? :P

I think kingdoms should be run in a way where all groups can find some more inclusion... I also believe that principalities are of great benefit to everyone. The royalty need not incur such financial drains while everyone gets to feel a part of the Kingdom/Principality without doing so as well.
Oh... to feel and see all the BS Tir Mara went through on her journey to principality, much pain that was not necessary.

[femkederoas.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I'm not sure. I don't know if, given the guidelines currently in place, proposing a smaller site with a cap set would be a reason for denial of a bid, or not. :-S

[jillwheezul.livejournal.com]

I'm not a big fan of the strict rotational model just because of the economics and logistics. I live on the border of a small principality, not part of the population center of the kingdom. The principality is mostly rural with a larger population center, but the strict rotation to small groups means that many events are some distance to travel from one edge to the other, with quite small turn-outs - almost just like local events rather than regional ones.

From an economic standpoint this makes little sense to me. The hosting group usually loses money and the whole principality loses out on opportunities to develop as a cohesive organization because so many people are missing. I would suggest a different strategy. I would run some stats on population densities. The areas with the highest concentrations of populations should have the most events. They serve the greatest number of people, and it is even a benefit if they are central. Events still should rotate, but not perhaps at one turn each - it would depend on the logistics.

Groups that are small who feel this is unfair to their coffers could be paired with the larger sponsoring groups to share in the gate. For example the larger Barony in the populous area could be in charge of finding the site, the booking paperwork etc, and the smaller shire could be in charge of running gate, the lists and all the other jobs that take time, patience and love.

I suspect that no matter what happens, a certain percentage of the population base just will not travel for a variety of reasons, most probably for monetary reasons. Which is why, if I were an outlying branch, I would only put in bids for crown tournaments.

I'd also consider a survey to see how far people are willing to travel and then find, if necessary, a compromise area outside of the 'power base' for some events until my local base was firmly established and go from there.

As to event sites, that's a toughie. I have been saying for decades that our kingdom should have bought a piece of land for events starting back in 1984. The amount of money we put out just for our crown tourneys would have bought it several times over and even as a non-profit it is possible to generate profit to put back into the organization (just think, showers, classrooms, a living history village...). No one has ever listened. My experience with finding sites and those people who do is that we drive around and around, asking questions, checking out buildings and networking until something comes up. It's an art in itself!

[femkederoas.livejournal.com]

I guess my issue is, the document on the Kingdom site basically implies that you might as well not bid for Crown or Coronation if your site can't hold 700+. Or, if you intend to host with a smaller site, you might as well kiss the bid good-bye. When, to be honest, I' haven't seen that many people at one in a LONG time. Maybe that's because I don't go to those in S Ohio/KY, I don't know.

And, we're losing all our big sites. It's something we're all dealing with. So the question starts to be, do we limit Kingdom events to the 2-3 sites that hold that many places? Place a cap and use smaller sites? Or look again toward Principalities as a way to spread the pomp and make use of good, smaller event sites?

[jillwheezul.livejournal.com]

I'd probably agree that limiting attendance at a Crown event is not the best choice. There will be complaints, and they will be loud.

I don't know if you are looking for camping sites or halls for coronation?

Basically, we use a few large sites for camping and are always on the hunt for more. Preferably they are near an airport (half hour) and can hold a couple thousand people (big events here). Crowns and the summer coronation are camping events, and 12th Night coronation switched to 'convention' style at a hotel or hotels at a convention-plex. I was leary at first, but it ended up being a lot of fun.

The sites for camping include a few state parks, and private areas that people go out and find. A $7000 rental fee is not out of line for our large events - especially in 'downtown' of the Kingdom. The site of An Tir West War is on, I believe, private property in the boonies near the California/Oregon border. Normally that would be a recipe for low turnout BUT the royals of both kingdoms LOVE this event and so the clan follows, as it were.

Our kingdom A&S events are now held at schools with hotels nearby. They are usually pretty cheap to rent. I do have to say that sit down kingdom feasts are a thing of the past, and replaced by local feasting events around the holiday season.

[femkederoas.livejournal.com]

Midwest weather is questionable under the best of circumstances. Fall Crown is late Oct - which can sometimes mean snow. So, indoors, generally. Or at least with that option available.

I don't think we've ever done an outdoor coronation, either. Spring Coronation is late April. Think, cold and drizzly to cool and watery sunshine.

MI state parks normally center around beach activities. Not real conducive to other things.

Local schools - not so cheap these days. Hotels tend to (believe it or not) be cheaper, if less useful in terms of space for heavy fighting, etc.

IKA. ;-)

I'm just feeling my way toward a conclusion that an increase in liability issues and custodial costs is driving the costs of larger sites WAY up. And that may start making Kingdom events harder and Principalities make more sense.

[landverhuizer.livejournal.com]

of course, on the rotational models I have seen, groups who are unprepared to host an event coming to them are always able to say "no" (knowing they will have future opportunities, though possibly distant). This sometimes can be because the group is unable to handle the expense, because they do not have the volunteers or for other reasons. Usually such groups are more than able to bring in volunteers from outside of the group however, least with my experience.